tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35528290.post5379024895126266362..comments2007-08-18T11:06:57.407-06:00Joe Crossnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35528290.post-64379612113079276162007-08-18T11:06:00.000-06:002007-08-18T11:06:00.000-06:00Very well said Steve, as usual! Your comment makes me think of our great fears, even my own sometimes, of letting things die. We forget that part of the natural process includes decline and eventual death. We put too many churches on life-support systems that eat up lots of resources. We perpetually view decline and death as omens of something wrong.<BR/><BR/>At the same time, we view health as perpetual growth. Does anything in our natural environment ever continually grow (physically) in a healthy way? Most growth that happens after a certain stage of life is actually unhealthy. We rarely address that topic.Joe Crosshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06197152702040230537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35528290.post-48662042583150534802007-08-18T08:47:00.000-06:002007-08-18T08:47:00.000-06:00Structure? yes, we need it. I know you can't believe it is coming from me. But is structure that is built on a value system that doesn't look like structure. You know the endo-skeleton and exo-skeleton ideas. One you see the skin and muscles of the body and the other you see the bones. One seems cold and hard and the other alive, soft and warm. The problem is as Ken says, we have a structure that defines us and keeps us on a certain way of living and knowing Jesus. Instead of having Jesus be that source and the structure we have is just seeing him, responding to Him, letting Him, the H.S. and the word be our guide. The structure is letting things grow and maybe even die. <BR/>In your lillies example. Maybe the intrinsic purpose of those plants are to come and give joy for a season and then die. If our goal is to let them birth wildly and with little care and control then let it happen. That is your structure and value system.<BR/>If our goal is to keep them alive for ever than we'll build a system/structure for living that do just that. We'll keep them alive but new ones won't grow b/c we spend too much time on keeping the other ones alive.<BR/>So be the church. If our goal is to keep a specific church or movement alive in its current form then we'll spend all our resources to do just that. If our goal is to launch new churches or movements and have them multiply wildy and naturally then we'll spend our resources and time on that. The first generation may die but in the process they planted many more movements. That is the beauty of having that type of structure. More growth verses extended growth.Steve Van Diesthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05952070181347475299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35528290.post-11437765345330778032007-08-17T20:57:00.000-06:002007-08-17T20:57:00.000-06:00Joe,<BR/>Real quick that is Dan Hayes. I'll read the rest. Going to hang with the wifey.<BR/><BR/>steveSteve Van Diesthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05952070181347475299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35528290.post-40523604430786358332007-08-17T11:02:00.000-06:002007-08-17T11:02:00.000-06:00Agreed! Usually when a movement breaks out there is very little structure. The problem seems to lie in us trying to funnel the front edge of the movement into a structure that we think will help benefit the movement. That usually slows it or kills it completely.<BR/><BR/>But we can help the movement if we encourage the organic process. That's where it gets tricky. <BR/><BR/>If I bunch of wild lilies sprang up in my yard, I wouldn't really need to do anything immediately to help more grow, as they do that naturally. In fact, my attempts to do so may disrupt the organic process. However, if the flowers begin to wilt in the heat of summer, I would do well to begin a process of watering and caring for them. <BR/><BR/>But I have to use very tender care. If my "caring" for them means transplanting them into a nice pattern that I want, I'm probably going to kill a bunch.Joe Crosshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06197152702040230537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35528290.post-53968912351846979932007-08-17T05:03:00.000-06:002007-08-17T05:03:00.000-06:00Joe - great words on Killing a Movement with too much structure. Structure is a funny thing; it is like blood pressure. One can die from too low or too high; either way you're still dead. It's always incumbent on leaders to monitor the right pressure range and continually PRUNE OUT structures that are no longer necessary for the next phase of growth. That's where I see the church fail - keeping old structures alive for too long. <BR/><BR/>NB: Last week we took the family out to Cocoa Beach, Florida. It happened to be a couple of days after the space shuttle launch. We saw two NASA boats hauling the booster rockets back in from the open sea. I think the boosters only remain attached to the shuttle for about 60-90 seconds during lift off, then they are jettisoned. The church - and CCC - could learn a few lessons from that principle.Kenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00980793942550161093noreply@blogger.com